It took Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier several high profile bouts to settle their differences and it seems that we are in for a rematch of Max Mosley’s FIA vs Luca di Montezemolo’s FOTA; a heavyweight showdown, just when we all thought things had been sorted out.
There may not be a catchy title to this bout, such as the “Thriller in Manilla”, but you certainly wouldn’t call this weekend’s scrap, set for the Nurburgring, “A mere trifle in the Eiffel”.
This is serious and FOTA have responded to being informed that its eight teams are not entered in next year’s championship with the line that this could put the future of F1 in jeopardy.
It’s been an odd week in F1, with the Bernie Ecclestone/Hitler stuff and now this. Non-F1 people I speak to in the media and public consider the sport as a bit of a pantomime. But I think it’s deadly serious and it has to do with money.
I noted that CVC were ‘shocked’ by Bernie’s comments but supportive of his apology, but I cannot imagine they are very happy about today’s development.
The document offering the debt on F1 to interested parties suggested that the new Concorde Agreement had been agreed and that the teams would all sign up during 2007. Here we are two years later and it has not been signed. That has to be creating some real pressure.
Part of the ‘peace deal’ agreed on June 24th was for the FOTA teams to commit to FOM until 2012. If the FIA considers them not to be entered in the championship, then one wonders where this commitment stands and the absence of eight key teams, including Ferrari, must threaten F1’s business model.
CVC is the venture capital company who hold 75% of the equity in F1’s commercial rights holder, which is subject to a debt of over $2 billion. It is felt that pressure from them led to the ‘peace agreement’ between FOTA and the FIA a few days after the British Grand Prix.
But almost immediately that deal started to unravel. First we had FOTA’s hubris at ‘beating’ Mosley, delight that he was quitting in October, accusations that he was a ‘dictator’, suggestions that the next FIA president should be ‘independent’. Since then there has been a steady drip of insinuation about the FIA’s Alan Donnelly and his role in the approval of new teams. We have also had suggestions that the new teams were obliged to sign up for Cosworth engines, as the Northampton firm had indicated that they needed three teams to make their F1 engine programme viable.
The FIA acted last night with a warning that unanimity would be required when finalising the 2010 rules and that would mean the non-FOTA teams, including the three new teams, seeing eye to eye with the existing teams.
I’m travelling at the moment to Germany, so I’m going to have to do some digging around tomorrow to find out what has motivated this latest move. But it looks set to push the FOTA teams back towards their previously suggested plan of a breakaway. If they are not entered in next year’s F1 championship then presumably they are free agents, unless they are now caught by commercial contracts obliging them to find a solution with the FIA.
FOTA believe that the deal struck in Paris on June 24th meant that they were entered in the championship (an entry list was published with their names on it) and that they had carte blanche to agree the 2010 rules themselves, which would then be rubber stamped by the FIA.
The shock of today’s news is that this appears not to be the case. I can’t wait to find out what this turn-around is based on.
The FOTA teams walked out of technical working group meeting at the Nurburgring today and a statement this afternoon shows their exasperation,
“As endorsed by the WMSC and clearly stated in the FIA press statement of 24 June ‘the rules for 2010 onwards will be the 2009 regulations as well as further regulations agreed prior to 29 April 2009’. At no point in the Paris discussions was any requirement for unanimous agreement on regulations change expressed. To subsequently go against the will of the WMSC and the detail of the Paris agreement puts the future of Formula 1 in jeopardy.”
Off to the Eiffel mountains we go then, into another weekend of great uncertainty.
allenonf1.wordpress.com 
Will no one save us from this meddlesome Max?
PLEASE FOTA – go it alone.
The thought that crossed my mind on reading the latest was that there can be no way back for FOTA now. How can they enter any agreement with Mosley? There is no point in sitting around a table with him or any of his puppets.
Oh! Charlie. You were one of my heroes once. Not look what you have become.
My sport, the one I’ve followed for 42 years, from the age of 20, that’s all my adult life, is now in real danger. I have 37 books in my office that relate in one way or another to F1. It looks like Stewart’s ungraded autobiography is the last I’ll but.
And not only that, we have Ecclestone saying, according to the Mail:
“When informed that the World Jewish Congress had called for [Ecclestone’s] resignation, he responded, ‘It’s a pity they didn’t sort the banks out.’ When asked to elaborate, he countered, ‘They have a lot of influence everywhere.’ ”
This is extraordinary. How can any adult, let alone someone who has lived through the second world war, and its aftermath, say such a thing? How can he praise Hitler and then paraphrase him?
Mosley going back on agreement and Bernie doing his best, it seems, to get the sport banned for Europe: can any sport sustain such continual assaults?
I really don’t see what FOTA has done wrong in all this, but your article seems to imply James that they have played a part in causing this new round of problems. True, some people could have behaved with a little more dignity following the ‘defeat’ of Max Mosley, but aside from this it seems (in terms of information in the public domain) that FOTA has done nothing wrong and simply wants to get on with what was agreed in Paris.
As for the allegations re Cosworth, these seem to have been legitimate and the FIA have not denied that this was a requirement of entry, they have virtually admitted it was the case.
It will be interesting to hear the FIA’s reasons for saying they are not entered, given they published an entry list with their names on it. Bring on Ari Vatanen.
The FIA have really overstepped the mark this time. The press release on their own website following the peace deal clearly states the “acceptance” of 13 teams for the 2010 world championship, including the FOTA teams. Today’s claim from FOTA that they were told by the FIA’s Charlie Whiting that they were not entered for next year is totally in contradiction to this, and gives the impression that the FIA are the ones at fault for this row rumbling on. The FIA surely cannot be trusted anymore, especially on the back of the Martin Donnelly [Alan – mod] revelations earlier this week regarding the selection of the new teams. If FOTA do ultimately walk away from F1 and set up their own series, you certainly couldn’t blame them.
James – I have to agree with Steve’s comments above that whilst certain people in FOTA should have been more discreet following the Paris meeting, the main cause of this latest dispute is the FIA. When I read your take on it in comparisons to others sites, you seem to lay more emphasis on FOTA causing this latest dispute. Is there more to these walkouts than meets the eye, I thought the FOTA guys were very happy with the settlement post Paris.
As a footnote, a number of my friends are big F1 fans and this is really taking the gloss of the sport, for the people I know that are just possible supporters they believe this has all become a joke. There could be a huge detriment to the sport here and I believe you have touched on it with how unhappy CVC are as they can see what it will do to the support.
The FIA’s claim that FOTA “walked out” is (as is often the case with them unfortunately) completely disingenuous. FOTA were told on the day that ‘actually, you have no voting right in today’s voting process’, they asked for a postponement & that was denied, so just what did they have to stay for?
What started as 2009 rules with some amendments to be agreed by FOTA, has moved from ‘only with the consent of the non-Fota-Five’ & now on to ‘at the mercy of the FIA’. Well seriously, I really couldn’t find a strong argument against someone that said Manor is the official FIA-endorsed entry in all but name.
FOTA have to breakaway. Or rather they have to be prepared & willing to do so. If I were in FOTA I would push again with plans for a new series and if the WSMC/FIA about-turn (again!) and actually honour what they agreed then all the better.
I have enough, really 🙂 I am now summoning Max Mosley in front of World Motor Sport Council due to possible breach of 151c) – putting the sport into disrepute. Many fans are really disgussed. So am I 🙂
Is this just another Max’s attempt? If so, then he lost his temper 🙂
If only that arrogant fool Montezemolo had kept his big mouth shut when he won the debate with Mosley at Silverstone, but instead, with all the intellectual power of a farmyard cock he strutted around the Italian media crowing about how he’d wiped Mosley off the map.
Big, Big mistake ! Big expensive mistake.
You could imagine, for example, Ron Dennis winning such a fight. Apart from the odd monosyllabic remark, he’d never
say a dickybird about it publicly. That’s the way you keep the Mosley’s of this world under control……
‘Speak softly and carry a big stick.’
And now…we’re right back in the doo-doo again.
The only pleasing thing is the way all this eruption must be scaring the hell out the fat cats at CVC. Nice !
As upset as I am with Mosely and the FIA right now, I have to agree with you. Luca should have kept his mouth shut. Publicly humiliating Max is like throwing gas on a fire…everyone, except Luca it seems, knows that.
I am getting tired of this. I am with FOTA, but I think they should be a bit more flexible this time as they cannot expect to be the “rule writers” when there are 5 other teams involved (Williams, Force India and the newcomers).
Luis
Like I said before, they shouldn’t have given in…
I am not sure about what is really going on in the background, I have been an avid supporter of F1 my whole life. To be honest right now. If someone said that is it no more F1, I would just think “Oh Well, best I find something else to fill my time up with” Don’t get me wrong I love the sport. However right now I am bored of all this FIA/FOTA stuff. whatever happened to do you talking on the track!
It’s rediculous this has even come up now, FOTA made it quite clear what their terms were before they agreed to rejoin, and it’s quite late to be changing rules now in any case, cars are already on the drawing board. Is there a date at which the rules have to be set in stone?
I’m just wondering, did this split come from trying to appease the new teams or is Mosely just on another power trip?
James,
If you see Luca di Montezemolo this weekend
please tell him to apologize to that miserable [mod]
Max Mosley so we can watch Formula 1 in peace.
Until now I’ve always enjoyed the politics and technology of F1, it adds to the interest of the sport beyond the racing.
But now I am just sick of it. It has just become utterly pathetic – a bunch of egomaniacs who don’t care one jot about the fans, who just love their names in the press.
We’re gonna have another weekend dominated by the new “stars” of F1 – Bernie, Max, Luca, etc. Yawn.
Well lets hope it’s just the “Trifle in Eiffel.”
I am more interested in seeing if Red Bull really did take a step forward in the last GP or whether it was the conditions? I hope it was the former:-)
I have been an avid fan of F1 since I was 8 which is 30 years. All this is turning me off F1 at the moment and I am so dissapointed. I for one am just fed up with high powered professional corporations and governing bodies acting like children in the playground. As teams and leaders of one of the worlds biggest sports they should be acting like role models and showcasing leadership to the business world and the fans. Maybe they all need to put their very large ego’s aside and start sorting this out as its damaging the sport. I hate to think how the sponsors feel at the moment with headlines about Hitler and petty arguments day in day out. If it carries on I can see sponsors pulling out. The trouble is this is giving the motorsports world in general a bad name from grass roots right through to the big players. It seems that all the news now is off track which is very sad.
Hi James
Can you answer a question please, do the FOTA teams have a binding contract then with the FIA to participate in the 2010 WC? Are they bound then by the agreement reached in June with WMSC? If the anwser is yes then why dont they have the right to participate in the latest round of Technical Regulation meetings?
I do agree that all teams must agree to regulation changes after the regulations have already been published but how can the WMSC turn around and say that we will go back to the 2009 rules with modifications agreed to by the teams to sorry the 2010 regulations have been published so now all teams have to agree to your changes.
Time for FOTA to excerise there democratic right and not race for the FIA championship and one of their own design.
I wonder how CVC will view these new developments if Ferrari are not entered into the 2010 WC. No contract with the FIA to race next year so lets race else where.
Sigh… You know who F1 needs to sort this all out? Someone like Hitler. Hahahaha.
If FOTA doesn’t break away because of this, then they lose all credibility with sponsors, broadcasters, and fans. When stuff like this is pulled, FOTA has the moral high ground. But by continually threatening to break away and then backing off, everyone sees that it’s just a negotiating ploy, rather than a legitimate alternative to Max and Bernie.
Yes, sixty years of Formula One is an outstanding history. But the brand is being tarnished by all of this bickering. It’d be better for the teams to move on and start a new tradition with new tracks (or a return to some of the old ones), stable rules and teams, and fair fees to attend (and host) a race.
OK, I am getting frustrated. This is all pathetic childishness, and I blame the FOTA as much as I do the FIA.
It seems to me that after FOTA managed to get the FIA’s attention by threatening to break away, they now think they have a technique that will work. It’s like a child throwing a tantrum, the parents give in, and junior realizes it works. Well, guess what, boys – the breakaway threat didn’t work, and this won’t either. FOTA’s actions are just dragging out the inevitable. FOTA needs to quit talking and actually follow through with their threats – take your ball and go home, kids. Get a game going, and we (the fans) will figure out which game we’ll watch. Right now, you’re just dragging all of us through the dirt.
Oh no not again. The end is near. Quarrels that will never be solved. A new beginning, FOTA must break away as the infection is beyond cure. For sure, more than 90% of fans agree. Let FIA get on with the new teams as TALK IS CHEAP! The two old men will wreck F1 before they leave this world.
A report on this development on another website states that FOTA came to the meeting prepared to get some work done, with powerpoint presentations and the whole nine yards. The report also states that 1) Charlie Whiting was clearly embarrassed when he gave FOTA the bad news, 2) Ross Brawn became agitated and wanted to why they just couldn’t “get on with it”, and 3) Whiting then sat down with Williams, Force India and the new teams. The FOTA reps, having been excluding from the discussion, left- hardly the “walk out” described by the FIA.
If the non FOTA teams had any spine, they would have refused to participate in a discussion without the FOTA teams. Williams and Force India, at least, should have staged a genuine walk out by joining the FOTA reps. Charlie Whiting, if he was so embarrassed, should have told Mosely to chair the meeting himself.
It is past time to put a stop to this lunacy, and it seems that the only way to do that is to get rid of Mosely now. All interested parties- the teams, the FIA members and staff, Bernie, CVC, the sponsors, perhaps even the German GP organizers- should, together, inform this meglomaniac that he must go, today.
What on earth did FOTA think; that they would be allowed to dictate to the new entrants what the rules would be? I also find it interesting that Williams and Force India have apparently not been welcomed back into the FOTA fold yet, which is, err, kind of strange and has led, more-or-less directly, to this situation about which the current FOTA members complain.
As ever, NONE of the participants in F1 do themselves any favours; FOTA is as much guilty of not pinning everything down as the FIA is of not proactively making a compromise stick.
FOTA probably though that 1) they had a deal( ie, had everything pinned down), and 2) they would have at least been allowed to participate in the meeting.
I agree totally!
Either all the teams participate in setting the rules, or none of them do. How can an invite-only subset of the teams be allowed to set the rules? That seems to totally break the FOTA demands for transparency and fairness.
As usual, no winners and lots of losers.
Neil.
This trench warfare that’s going on in Formula one for a while now is odly reminicent of events happening during and preceding the ‘great war’.
Then as now, several parties were embroiled in a race for absolute domination, that ended in a stalemate with untold number of casualties. Significantly, it marked an end to an era…
Taking a look at circuit attendance, one must conclude that Formula One addresses a predominantly European need for a certain kind of motorsport activity. It’s history is rooted firmly on this continent and there are few places otherwise where it has become a success (notably Japan, Brazil and Australia).
Expanding Formula One beyond those roots seemed quite an innovative idea at the time, attracting a wealth of corporate sponsorship. But resulting in unspectacular venues that are of little or no interest to the traditional fans nor to the local population.
Formula One has diverged, expanded and diluted under the guidance of a few individuals. As a result we’ve now come at a point were nobody actually ‘owns’ anything anymore except his own position or interests.
There simply can’t be an agreement for Formula One to continue in any recognisable shape or form in the trenches that have been dug and occupied.
This bubble will burst in the next few months. And all that’s going to be left of Formula One will be some very rich heirs to Bernie Ecclestone.
Huh?
What?
This is worse than any soap opera…
Of course CVC would be pushing for keeping the existing F1, a 2 Billion $ debt is not a trifle… But hey, it’sventure capital, you win some, you lose some…
I do wonder how long this whole mess will go on though. After the quite surprising deal at the end of June, I really thought the whole war was as good as over. Apparently, no such thing.
Max, Bernie, FIA, whoever, are playing games hoping to leave it impossibly late for a breakaway series to be set up and then have what they want (whether its holidng on to position, controlling contracts, etc.).
I hoped that agreement could be attained and that the existing world championship would remain with the current teams and new ones.
Perhaps a breakaway would be better now. May be we need to concentrate on that. With the eight FOTA teams running three cars or having a couple of customer teams and a calendar such as the one suggested after the British GP this would soon kill off any FIA F1 World Championship. I cannot see the new teams committing to it anyway under the above circumstances.
The only issue is why did FOTA not set up the breakaway championship some weeks ago? It does suggest that there are some very difficult contracts to get out of.
Does anyone now not seriously believe that if Max Mosley had been out of the picture, this saga of epic proportions would have been resolved a LONG time ago.
Is there no bounds to the ego of this man?
A possible title for this bout would be ‘The man who shot F1 by shooting himself in the foot!’ or a more whimsical title would be ‘Here we go round the Mulberry bush…again!’
I start to seriously believe that the plan all along has been to make the manufacturers walk away from F1 at any cost.
I really do, truly, despair. This was sorted on 24th June, publicised as such so why now are we, apparently back at square one, and what does that mean for the future? Personally I can only hope someone (and I don’t know who was at yesterdays meeting) has interpreted something incorrectly, and there will be a quick rebuttal. Somehow I think this is more pathetic FIA/FOM posturing, further harming this sport. I know for one that I’m getting fairly pig sick of it already now.
This ‘new’ turnaround is nothing but Max trying to play boss again… Only interesting thing point left is how Fota will now organise a championship on a such a short time frame…
I’m going to agree with all the criticisim above about the FIA, afterall this is obviously baiting FOTA
However, lets put our hindsight glasses on and look at the ‘Mosley’ affect
– he made the teams think they had forced him from office and that made them agree to continue in F1 till 2012 (despite the fact his entire staff knew he would not be continuing next year)
I see this as merely Max’s dabbling hands that will push the teams into agreeing a structured cost cutting scheme that the new entry teams can adhere to and one which will allow them some semblence of competitiveness for 2010 – 2011
Oh Max you crafty devil you! Let just pray you dont destroy the sport we all love
Williams and Force India need to join the FOTA immediately or face being thrown out of F1 when it finally gets back on track, minus [mod] Moseley and quite possibly Bernie/CVC if they do not get their acts together pronto….
Moseley has massively overstepped the mark now with this, he is either utterly utterly barking mad, or just deliberately trying to destroy F1.
It is almost like he discovered Bernie had somehting to do with “all that upleasant business in the basement with his *friends*” and this is his revenge, destroy F1 to get at Bernie… after all it now hardly looks like it was Ron does it ?
Hi James,
I can’t imagine how this is possible !!? There was an agreement and an entry list officially published by the FIA where all 8 FOTA teams were included. The WMSC agreed on it as well.
What happens now makes it clear that the teams can’t trust the FIA even after a signed agreement. It seems clear to me that MOSLEY was buying time.
The idea of MOSLEY was from the beginning to buy time in order to make the alternative FOTA championship almost impossible to organise for next year. The teams would be forced to apply for the FIA championship under budget cap.
Right now, either teams have still enough time to go for their own championship, or it is too late and that will lead to a couple of questions :
– how can they achieve that cap next year, I’m thinking particularly of TOYOTA(Germany) and FERRARI(Italy) where laws are much harsher than in ENGLAND. It would cost them so much to dump people it would makes it virtually impossible.
– how to avoid cheating. Example : I’m FERRARI or MERCEDES. Some of the Formula 1 budget is transferred to other departments and these departments make some R&D stuff relevant to the Formula 1 program without knowing the purpose of their job. Another manner is buy stuff with a cheaper than normal price and to have the difference paid another way or to have that company as a sponsor. That is very difficult to track.
I just want to point out that governments, military industry, criminal organisations have hidden transactions for decades…. So it is feasible, how easy it is, I don’t know… But the climate of suspicion will be there, firmly there….
I’m a little surprised by MOSLEY’s behaviour to be honest. He isn’t fighting DENNIS or TODT, he is fighting Di Montezemolo the chairman of FIAT, the former chairman of LA CONFINDUSTRIA. Here we talk of someone with very high profile, great connections,….
I hope for MOSLEY that he’s whiter than white, otherwise there is another scandal on its way.
Some of you imply that FOTA wants to dictate the rules. I don’t see it that way. They simply want the same woting rights as the other 5 teams (i.e. the same influence as the other teams). They are pissed that Max is only allowing them observer status and only let the 5 other teams have influence on the rules.
Ok Stop all of this now.
This is getting more than a little silly.
Thankfully there’s some other great sport happening around the world, of which I am a fan as I am of top level single seater racing. So, diluting that into two series isn’t such a bad thing.
Take the 2007/8 seasons, if all of this nonsense happened during those seasons F1 would have just moved on, no problem. But this year, this year is a different story. There’s no real fight for the championship, with all due respect to Brawn, it’s not the same as an older established team slogging away for years building up an history in F1 and winning a championship.
So in this respect, the FIA and FOTA can pull themselves apart, who cares. I can move on next year and remember those classic seasons of the past. Maybe in ten years time we’ll have another great series.
(Would be great to see ‘european’ cars at Laguna Seca again)
MD
I have yet to see anyone post, here or elsewhere on various message boards and blogs, anything like the phrase “Hey isn’t all this politics and strutting GREAT for the sport!”.
Fans are unanimously sick and tired of all this. Somewhere in the dim background a couple of unimportant nobodies called Jenson Button and Sebastian Vettel are lined up for a ding dong of a season ender that might match Wimbledon’s men’s final on Sunday.
But hey, nobody’s interested in that. What the fans really want to read about is the FIA and FOTA slugging it out.
I really can see this killing the sport, people will be turning over to Coronation Street in their hundreds of thousands.
Thanks Max, Bernie, Luca, Flavio, for tainting the sport, your chest beating antics are pathetic.
Sick and tired of all this. Again!!
If this is what F1 has become then it can’t die soon enough. I ever wanted to watch egotistical, dumb and spoilt men behavind like 5 year olds on a playground I’d be watching PM Question Time on Wednesdays… The “F1” brand as these people like to refer to it has been turned into a sad joke in 2009.
James
Question for a future posting (I hope)…
What is the penalty if a team decide not to race? (ie, they choose not to take to the track)
I’m assuming it’s an absolutely enormous penalty against their rights money?
Thanks
Paul